<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?>
<rss xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/" version="2.0">
  <channel>
    <title>Advantages of incompetent management - comments</title>
    <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comments</link>
    <description>Comments on "Advantages of incompetent management" by Yossi Kreinin</description>
    <docs>http://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification</docs>
    <generator>Yossi Kreinin's ugly publishing software</generator>
    <image>
      <url>https://yosefk.com/blog/self.jpg</url>
      <title>Advantages of incompetent management - comments</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comments</link>
      <width>144</width>
      <height>144</height>
    </image>
    <language>en</language>
    <lastBuildDate>Sun, 31 May 2026 03:00:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
    <item>
      <title>Yossi Kreinin</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-c187ca8c-633c-4330-ac81-372fae44e9f6</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>I think it's the same factor. If you don't
get it right and cause new issues as a side effect of trying to fix
existing issues, sure it will be "on you", but the real problem and the
source of the asymmetry is that you don't get much credit for getting it
right, because fixing issues is not a goal and cannot be made into a
goal (without making everything even worse by encouraging people to put
in bugs that are then fixed.)<p></p>
<p>Thanks for the giant hairball pointer, maybe I should read it</p>
]]></description>
      <pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2024 01:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Yossi Kreinin</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Dimitar Dimitrov</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-c8d6456d-9855-420d-a56f-ee071acbe105</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>There is another factor that makes changing
the system to optimize resources, fixing non-critical bugs, or improving
the codebase a loser's proposition.<p></p>
<p>Any benefit from these efforts would accrue to the company, including
other teams, but if you slip and don't get it quite right the first
time, chances are this would be a black spot on your personal
record.</p>
<p>This asymmetry makes it obviously winning strategy to collect these
issues and once you have enough of them to knit a good narrative, make a
case to rewrite the system using the shiny new generation stack. Of
course it will only deliver the obvious 60% of the functionality, will
be buggy as hell on day one and will need a stabilization period of over
a year, followed by migration period of 5 years (when you actually
implement the non-obvious 40%), and in the end the history will repeat
with new cast because all the leading actors have already left to
revolutionize another competitor.</p>
<p>Occasionally you may chance on a bearded hermit that no one pays much
heed to (often in the QA or BA team) who can tell you where exactly in
the cycle are you. They've learned the art to do just enough and accept
the things they can't change (see the "Orbiting the giant hairball"
book)</p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Sat, 13 Jul 2024 01:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Dimitar Dimitrov</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Yossi Kreinin</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-b6463993-e3e9-4ff7-b9d5-1123d9c8b5ed</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body><span class="citation" data-cites="Nick">@Nick</span>: a long description by an employee would
indeed be interesting. I don't trust management consultants, or
managers, for that matter, saying how things at some place they were
involved with are very different from elsewhere - it could very well be
that the employee will cite the usual forces as dominant and whatever
management says makes the difference as being either insignificant to
the experience of an employee or outright false/fake.<p></p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2024 10:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Yossi Kreinin</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>none</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-cf17a0fe-72dd-42e0-8617-9a2d9e32916a</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>I feel called out by that 'effective
goodness' bit, never examined that thought closely myself but as you
indicate tugging at that thread isn't exactly reassuring. Interesting
article, thank you.<p></p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2024 10:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>none</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Nick Jarboe</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-c344a2b5-faad-4bbf-9dcf-c244341f7c3e</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>I saw a YouTube video a few years ago (don't
have a link, sadly) of someone who worked at Tesla as a "management
consultant" of sorts. The way he described how things worked at Tesla
was very different from any other company I have heard of and was quite
cool. People are not hired for any specific position and when onboarded
get a phone with around 20 custom internal Tesla apps that shows what is
going on in the company. For example, the time taken to complete each
station on all the production lines. So one could see which station is
holding up a line from going faster and one could work on fixing that
problem. Another would show you what parts were needing repairs and the
cost of those repairs. Apps measuring everything that is going on in the
whole company and you decide where it would be best to apply your skills
and talents to best help the company.<p></p>
<p>This system seems remarkable to me and I would love to read a long
description of how it works by some Tesla employees, but I have not seen
anything written else about it or videos since seeing that one YouTube
video.</p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Mon, 08 Jul 2024 07:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Nick Jarboe</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Yossi Kreinin</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-f76bb64d-033a-4fbb-8dd3-ae28d95b3941</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body><span class="citation" data-cites="Teodor">@Teodor</span>: generally I guess that I'm
describing things I've heard, more than things I've seen myself, since
you're going to hear more stories than see them yourself and you want to
generalize from a larger sample. I think a perspective needs to be
factually correct to a reasonable extent and then the productive or not
productive part is about how you handle things being what they are, but
I don't like the idea of thinking of things as being different from what
they are on the theory that it's the more productive thought to think
(though I guess this kind of approach can work for some.)<p></p>
<p><span class="citation" data-cites="Justin">@Justin</span>: I'm not
necessarily describing researches, these could be programmers developing
some "framework" or "infrastructure" you don't really need that gives
their team a purpose or whatever; it could be bigger than that, with
whole product/business directions developed "bottom up" that become a
problem for the business which finds itself committed to various
arrangements that are costly to maintain and which never really make
sense except for the team that made it into its goal.</p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Sun, 07 Jul 2024 22:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Yossi Kreinin</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Justin</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-7581d2ca-1237-4476-8b89-292f40b4a59e</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>You might be describing "researchers" that
are in the wrong place.<p></p>
<p>Since there isn't accountability they are doing research that often
doesn't matter (bad management), they are hiding the fact that what they
are working on is research so they can continue to exist in a large
organization, then they are conveniently forgetting to throw the code
out at the end in the name of getting promoted (contributing to
sprawl).</p>
<p>Maybe the answer to the incentive problem you described is to pay for
research in areas you wouldn't typically consider research (e.g. end
goal is a white paper, not production code). That being said large
research organizations suffer from the territory/budget problems you
wrote about.</p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Sun, 07 Jul 2024 07:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Hi</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-17a6a0b4-df03-4c06-9162-3feec23e40e2</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>I am yet to see it. -&gt; I have yet to see
it.<p></p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Sun, 07 Jul 2024 00:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Hi</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Teodor</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-c8c4eca2-c830-40f4-8ffd-2b05cf8fdb29</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>While I'd love to argue that it can actually
be <em>good</em>, I think the point of view "it's always going to be a
bit bad" is healthy for everybody's sake, especially employed
programmers.<p></p>
<p>I liked your comments about slowing down. How it's often good, but
counter intuitive that it's good. I've seen good managers do good work
by slowing important thing down to a more sustainable pace.</p>
<p>I'm curious about how you came to the position that "it's going to be
a bit bad". Are you describing things you've seen? Or do you feel like
this perspective is more productive than the opposite?</p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Sat, 06 Jul 2024 14:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Teodor</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Yossi Kreinin</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-df8f0a42-72f5-4503-aaf9-8487f8015cee</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<html><head> </head><body>I don't think that what I describe as
competent management is "bad." I think that the act of managing - of
which setting specific goals for specific people and organizations is a
most basic step - has inevitable adverse effects. I don't think "good"
management, rated as "good" by all affected stakeholders and achieving
optimal outcomes by every reasonable measure, is theoretically possible
to consistently achieve. I think you will evolve competence I'm setting
and achieving goals over time if you are to survive, and it will come
with unfortunate side effects that you can't do much about.<p></p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Fri, 05 Jul 2024 02:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Yossi Kreinin</dc:creator>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Lmm</title>
      <link>https://yosefk.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?post=blog/advantages-of-incompetent-management#comment-d944b25a-4d55-440d-923c-870f6a9b0f74</link>
      <description><![CDATA[<p>Is calling bad management "good" here a meta-joke about the
impossibility of defining goals well?</p>
<p>Management that sets more goals and controls use of resources more
tightly is like an engine that burns more fuel - you might hope it's
getting you there faster, but it's just as likely that it's making a lot
of noise and smoke. The measure of good management is not how much
control they impose but how efficiently they spend their employees'
patience - a good manager is one who can get employees to do stuff that
benefits the company with the minimum of collateral damage. Managing
well involves a lot of what looks like laziness, much like flying a
plane or monitoring a nuclear reactor.</p>
<p>A manager who jerks the rudder back and forth constantly might seem
the opposite of one who never touches it, and you might debate which of
the two is better to work under. But they're ultimately just different
ways to be a bad manager, and one can crash a plane just as easily as
the other.</p>
<p></p>]]></description>
      <pubDate>Fri, 05 Jul 2024 01:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
      <dc:creator>Lmm</dc:creator>
    </item>
  </channel>
</rss>
